Holocaust

[Okta20]

wouldnt it have been impossible for all of them to be locked up immediately? the amount of people they locked up/killed was phenomenal for how fast they did it.. how many years did it last for?

They weren't all locked up at the same time. As I said, before the election they arrested quite a lot of their opposition. After that they gradually tried to put everyone who didn't fit in their world view in their newly built concentration camps.
As sarah2 said, some people were denouncing their own neighbors, but in addition to that the Nazis had a very well working secret service.... you can imagine.
There are ways to find out whether you're communist or gay... and Jews had to wear that yellow star in public anyway, so they were recognizable.
The first concentration camp (Dachau) was built in 1933/34 and it was there until the allied forces came in 1945.

i guess its just.. if you were in the position that so many were when hitler ruled, what would you have done? it would have taken a lot of guts to stand up to anyone who had that much power and was so sadistic.. which i think is why he had so many supporters. they would have been afraid of him.

Yes.
You couldn't say anything about the regime in public during that time, or you would have been severely punished. Look up what happened to Sophie Scholl and her friends.

A lot of Hitler's support in the later years (after 1935) is either based on fear, or on brainwashing. They systematically educated children to be good little Nazis and later soldiers.

The dangerous people were actually those who believed in all that propaganda because of their own, free will.

[sarah2]

I know. Reichstagsbrandverordnung and all that. But, I'm sorry, if I offend you, is the number of the bloody article really important here? Same thing for the Wall Street crash (btw, the reparations were irrationally high even before that).

I think we've both got into some kind of "bah, I know better than you"-argument. I don't want to do that.

I'm really sorry if I sounded a bit agressive, I had an argument about this subject a while ago and it got pretty heated and I guess I'm a bit like AH! about it and I kinda get into these things too much
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I really do apologise! (This other guy was going on about so much shit, and I sort of had to shout facts at him that he some how "missed out" and prove him wrong in History class the other day, it really fucked me off, and I guess I'm a little het up about that still, I do apologise for taking it out on you!)

And wow, that's a good word, I don't speak German, what does that translate like, literally to (Reichstagsbrandverordnung?) and also I've always wondered what Reich literally translates to?
Also, what's a it like being German and having all the History of Hitler and the Nazi's in your countries history? Is there any like...underlying guilt about it, I've read that a lot of Germans feel guilty that their parents/grandparents were involved in things like that?

f it meant saving yours and your family/friends' lives wouldnt you tell people what they wanted to hear? i think thats what you mean anyway..

Yeah as Okta20 says, it wasn't just about saving your own skin. I mean, if you were an Aryan and you kept your head down, you really didnt have to worry about being killed or taken to a camp, but they still denounced Jews,gays...etc to the police because well..they believed what Hitler said that the Jews where to blame for the economical disaster than Germany had become (some Jews where rich because some high street department stores were owned by Jews and it sort of became a steriotype). Which seems so strange to us now, like, they knew what would happen to them, people sometimes say, Oh the German people didn't know what was going on, which I'm sure in some cases is true, but for example in Warsaw and places in Poland they certainly would have known about the ghettos and rumours spread you know? It's strange that a human being would do that to another isnt it? I don't understand that. I suppose it was to do with fear and propaganda, but I guess nower days we'd like to think we wouldnt be overcome by propaganda like that.

Originally Posted by Okta20
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Yes.
You couldn't say anything about the regime in public during that time, or you would have been severely punished. Look up what happened to Sophie Scholl and her friends.

A lot of Hitler's support in the later years (after 1935) is either based on fear, or on brainwashing. They systematically educated children to be good little Nazis and later soldiers.

The dangerous people were actually those who believed in all that propaganda because of their own, free will.

Agreed, and there were a lot of them. But I guess like, you know the rallies Hitler held and everything, I suppose they were, expected to go, I mean, if you were at one of those massive rallies, Hitler Youth marching around, army looking ordered, poloticians making claims to help your country out of crisis and all the people around you start clapping and cheering for him, you might think, well, all these people agree, perhaps I should. Like for example when Stalin gave speeches about the benifits of socialism in Russia, his applause was so long because everyone was afraid to be the first to stop clapping (I know that as more extreme, but it's the same kind of thing).
Some people did stand up for justice though, but as pointed out, they often were killed, like the Edelweiss Pirates and the Swing Movment were groups of teeangers going against Nazism, they were pretty cool, but several young men from them where publicly hanged for being part of it, which is well, less cool.

[Okta20]

I'm really sorry if I sounded a bit agressive, I had an argument about this subject a while ago and it got pretty heated and I guess I'm a bit like AH! about it and I kinda get into these things too much
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I really do apologise!

No problem
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But I guess like, you know the rallies Hitler held and everything, I suppose they were, expected to go, I mean, if you were at one of those massive rallies, Hitler Youth marching around, army looking ordered, poloticians making claims to help your country out of crisis and all the people around you start clapping and cheering for him, you might think, well, all these people agree, perhaps I should.

Yes, that's what it was about most of the time. Fear, propaganda and a good deal of brainwashing.

And wow, that's a good word, I don't speak German, what does that translate like, literally to (Reichstagsbrandverordnung?) and also I've always wondered what Reich literally translates to?

Reichstagsbrandverordnung is difficult to translate. The Reichstagsgebäude is the building where Germany's parliament (back then it was Reichstag, now it's called Bundestag) meets. Brand is translated to something like "big fire". And a Verordnung is basically some kind of law.

Reich would translate to empire.

Also, what's a it like being German and having all the History of Hitler and the Nazi's in your countries history? Is there any like...underlying guilt about it, I've read that a lot of Germans feel guilty that their parents/grandparents were involved in things like that?

Those are difficult questions. It will probably take some time to answer them.
Before I start, I'd like to point out that I'm talking from the point of view of a 20 year old with quite a bit of education. It might be different for younger/older people or people with less schooling. That's important.

Guilt is perhaps the wrong word, although it's certainly a part of it.
You will almost never hear a German say that he's proud of being German. Patriotism is almost unknown, except when it comes to football/soccer or in right-wing extremist circles (yes, they do still exist).
Most of the time people don't really talk about this topic, although it is very present in media, politics and discussion.
Until last year no one ever dared to laugh or joke about it in public without consequences.
The Holocaust (and everything else about the Nazis) is quite a touchy thing for most people - we're scarred, I guess.

Do you know the feeling when you are at a place in your country with a lot of history? Like you can feel the past in your bones?
It's a bit like that. It's in our bones and in our hearts, but, unlike the emotion on most historical sites, it hurts. It's not a physical pain, of course, but it's quite unpleasant.

I'd like to write more, but I feel quite sick today, so I'll just interrupt my ramblings here.

[sarah2]

That's ok, no need to write if you're feeling ill.
But wow, that's really interesting, I guess like, it's different here in the UK because although we've done some disgusting things in our history (the whole imperialism/empire shit was pretty awful) there was actual like...pride in the nation of the empire - I know it sounds twisted, but like most of my generations grandparents would have been told from a young age from THEIR parents how "absolutly topping" England and it's empire was and what a great job we did in WW1. Even people nower days go on and on about "the empire" and it's acheivments, but although we're aware of the awful things we did to gain all this power and how we really fucked up a lot of countries, it seems to long ago to be "our fault" and it's just ignored. People don't generally feel the negative emotions and horrible events that took place then, it's like the only thing left from those empire days in peoples hearts is the patriotism.
What are people scared of though?

I understand it must be hard to explain, and it's ok if you don't want to, I'm just really interested, honestly.

I guess I have felt like that, like the past in your bones but when I think of English history, I dont usually relate it to negativity which is strange because as I've said, we've done a lot of negative things.
Thanks for giving me the insight!

[Okta20]

Thank goodness my stomach has calmed down.... I really did feel terrible. Passive smoking is a horrible thing when you aren't used to it.
Where in the UK do you live?

The British Empire is somewhat different. I don't know exactly why. Perhaps because it was not their own country they destroyed/oppressed. Look at the Americans, same thing there.
And you *did* win. That's a big part of it, I believe.
Also, the Empire was not fascist or totalitarian. And there where some positive sides about it. There were not many positive things about the Nazis.

The emotions most Germans have about it all are, in my opinion, a good deal of grief, uneasiness or anger when the topic is denied or trivialized, remorse, pain, insecurity.

Also, you might have noticed that the Nazis seem to be the epitome of evil in modern times. They are the bad guys in Indiana Jones Movies.
Some of them were just people believing the wrong things, but quite a few of them were sadistic monsters. It's hard to belong to that people.

You do know what's said about Germans in some places abroad. You can't really help feeling a bit guilty there.

What are people scared of though?

Not scared (even though some might be), scarred. My dictionary says this is a synonym for marred or damaged. It was the only word I could think of.... I don't know whether you can use it in that context.

By the way, I have to correct myself. Patriotism does exist, even though people are more likely to have patriotic feelings for their federal state. In the place I live in it's even quite strong. But it's not the same thing.

[!-nessica-!]

you can use scarred in that context.

so you mean that not many people are proud to be german?
because although the most obvious, the holocaust isnt the only thing germany is recognised for. the whole thing with the berlin wall. oooh i wanna know all about that.

i guess because the holocaust happened in germany, unlike the british empire (dunno what that is
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), it was a lot closer to home. from what i can gather that was all about people from other countries, whereas in the holocaust the people of germany had a problem with other people of germany..

[Okta20]

so you mean that not many people are proud to be german?

Pride is a complicated thing. Most Germans won't ever admit to feel it concerning their own nation, because of the associations.
I, for one, like Germany. I think it's a beautiful country and we've come a long way since WW2. I like the literature, the arts, the music. Though I'll probably move abroad in some time of my life, I will always be German.
However, you won't ever see/hear me say that I'm proud of being German.

How about an extra threat for

the whole thing with the berlin wall

? I'll tell you about it, if you want to.

[Markme]

Originally Posted by Okta20
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Pride is a complicated thing. Most Germans won't ever admit to feel it concerning their own nation, because of the associations.

However, you won't ever see/hear me say that I'm proud of being German.

I find that statement innacurate, because out of all of the germans ive met, all of them loved their country. Maybe you will find the older generations being ashamed.... but im not sure how it can directly affect some one who was born 2 decades or more.
But i hope you are one day able to say you are proud of your heritage and who you are, i know cyberphoenix is proud of his german heritage.

[Okta20]

Don't misunderstand me. I do love my country. I'm *not* ashamed, never. This is the place where my ancestors have lived, these are my roots, this is my home. My "Heimat".
I would feel offended, if someone insulted my country.
But patriotism in this form is not something that's done in public, except concerning sports, especially football, in this place. You just don't do it.

It's very different when you are abroad. I certainly noticed me being "more German" when I was in England.
And because Germans are usually dramatic people, we take great pride in not being proud of our heritage.

And it does at least indirectly affect people, even those born later.
In one or two of our federal states, the NPD (Neonazi-party) is in parliament, because young people fell for their propaganda. They are still here, and that's the reason why it *should* still affect us, at the very least

[sarah2]

Hm, I see your point. I guess it's strange to have that remorse for others actions just as a part of the general feeling in the country.
I agree with you, I think German literature, music..etc is great, and as a nation has definatly moved on from WW1 and as has been pointed out, Soviet occupation and the East and West divide.
I think it's good that you're proud of your country, but still that you remember the things that have happened in it.
Thanks very much! You hear about these things, but I've never talked to a German about it before.

[Ravenhome]

I find it seriously seriously SERIOUSLY fucked up that people could do those sorts of things to anything let alone other human beings in the first place but my frigging god.... WOW!!! I'm at a loss for words.

[Okta20]

Originally Posted by Ravenhome
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I find it seriously seriously SERIOUSLY fucked up that people could do those sorts of things to anything let alone other human beings in the first place but my frigging god.... WOW!!! I'm at a loss for words.

I've not visited Exasco in quite some time (sorry), so I'm not really up-to-date....

Ravenhome, your post just made me smile. I've never before seen anybody react to the issue in such a way. I guess, being confronted with it so often, the cruelty does not surprise us that much anymore. A bit sad, really.

By the way, I definitely agree with your statement.
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