Holocaust

[Markme]

hitler was simply a statistic...
a statistic that was aided by being able to govern a country

1 out of every 100,000 people are a sociopath that doesnt give a shit what happens to himself or any one else. These are the people that are remembered for massica's because they dont give a shit on how many people they kill.

[Okta20]

hitler was simply a statistic...
a statistic that was aided by being able to govern a country

1 out of every 100,000 people are a sociopath that doesnt give a shit what happens to himself or any one else. These are the people that are remembered for massica's because they dont give a shit on how many people they kill

I thought it very interesting that I'm quite offended by that answer. It's strange how angry we get when someone plays things about Hitler down.... I know a few people who'd get really aggressive if they heard something like that.

[Markme]

how did it offend you?
and im sorry for offending you.

i was simply pointing out that hitler was like any other sociopath out there in the world. And not some german bread monster.

i have many german friends and ALOT of people ask them about hitler, because they all have the wrong idea. Most of them think that germans worshipped hitler.

[Okta20]

offended is probably the wrong word.
makes me feel strange, because all everybody says, everything that's written is basically how horrible that bloody madman was. It's a macabre kind of pride we have concerning him. If he would be played down to just another sociopath, we would lose a big part of our identity. His image as the "german bread monster" (i don't understand what he's got to do with bread, btw) is carefully protected.

[Markme]

hmm i guess, but when i think of germany... i really just think of how nice all the people are, hitley never comes to mind.

Hitler is equivelant to sadam hussein in my eyes or george bush

[Okta20]

that's good for you.
you think germans are nice people?! have you ever been here? In comparison to people from other countries most germans are, in my opinion, downright unfriendly.

well... hitler was a madman. a sociopath. bush is a moron. both are/were dangerous, I guess.

[sarah2]

Originally Posted by Markme
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hitler was simply a statistic...
a statistic that was aided by being able to govern a country

1 out of every 100,000 people are a sociopath that doesnt give a shit what happens to himself or any one else. These are the people that are remembered for massica's because they dont give a shit on how many people they kill.

Yes, there are many sociopaths in the world. But the big deal is because Hitler was in a position of great power - and that's when it goes horribly wrong.
Hitler SHOULD be remembered as a reminder to us to never let a sick racist into a postion of power ever again, our remembering the war and Hitler and the death of so many Jews is because we need to do everything in our power to prevent it ever happening again (and yes, I know there have been genocides since WW2). Hitler was supported by many many Germans at that time, due to all the shit that happened before, it was the governments fault and the peoples, but I suppose no-one knew how bad it would be.

and I think you might have a little old fashioned view of how people view Germans, I don't think all Germans are like Hitler because well..that's a little racist isn't it? We're not all stupid enough to assume every German is a Hitler worshipper and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of young people who think that nower days.

[Markme]

Originally Posted by sarah2
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Yes, there are many sociopaths in the world. But the big deal is because Hitler was in a position of great power - and that's when it goes horribly wrong.
Hitler SHOULD be remembered as a reminder to us to never let a sick racist into a postion of power ever again, our remembering the war and Hitler and the death of so many Jews is because we need to do everything in our power to prevent it ever happening again (and yes, I know there have been genocides since WW2). Hitler was supported by many many Germans at that time, due to all the shit that happened before, it was the governments fault and the peoples, but I suppose no-one knew how bad it would be.

and I think you might have a little old fashioned view of how people view Germans, I don't think all Germans are like Hitler because well..that's a little racist isn't it? We're not all stupid enough to assume every German is a Hitler worshipper and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of young people who think that nower days.

I agree that hitlers power was a big foundation to the monster he became, as i stated before. Any person that has such ludicruos veiws on humanity should never become the president, or be in charge or any one or thing.

I'm not sure if the second paragraph was for me, but if it was...
I dont think of hitler when i think of germany or the german people, i love them. All of the german friends i have are so nice, they are the opposite to the stereotype that many of them receive from people.

There is always going to be racists, murders, dishonest people and people that stray far from the line of sanity, but i guess as a global society we just have to deal with these people as they come. The holocast is something that happened in the past, its always going to be remembered for the inhumane things that were unleashed on the world. But in society today, there is still terrible terrible acts that are all around us. Assassinations, murders, rape, theft and many more. The holocast is thought of to be so terrible because it was targetted on a certain race of people, but in actual fact there was alot of germans, turks and many other races that died in thoughs gas chambers and death camps. Without all these terrible events, today.. right now would be different.

I'm glad the past is the past, because it allows us to create a different and better future based on the mistakes that others have made in the past.

[!-nessica-!]

i rarely think of hitler when i talk to a german. one of my best friends is german and hes the nicest guy you'll ever meet. he has so much respect for people and stuff. and its like that with pretty much all germans iv met.

hitler is only so well known because he was the first leader (i think) to kill so many people, and the way he did it was so appalling and these days people cant comprehend it. we find it a lot more normal for someone to blow people up with bombs, not put them in gas chambers.

its not any different though to like the hiroshima atomic bombs, which id say are worse. they tried to end a war by bombing 2 huge cities and the affects have lasted well past the initial bombing.

germans are no worse to americans or australians or any kind of nationality. every country has its "unfriendly" people, it just depends on who you meet. germany, however, seems to have a worse reputation for these kinds of people because of hitler.

[sarah2]

Originally Posted by !-nessica-!
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its not any different though to like the hiroshima atomic bombs, which id say are worse. they tried to end a war by bombing 2 huge cities and the affects have lasted well past the initial bombing.

It sort of is different, like, the Americans didn't bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki because they thought all Japanese people were to blame for everything and that they should all (as a race) be exterminated. Yes, they didn't take the lives of innocent civilians very seriously, but they didn't do it because they were racist psycos. They callculated that it would take more American soldiors to attack and take Japan (due to the viciousness of the Japanese soldiors) than it would to bomb the cities, Japan needed to be defeated to end the war, and it was also a good warning to the Communists of Russia, so they decided it was the only way to end the war. I'm not saying I agree with them, it wasn't a humane, right thing to do, but they did it for a positive end (as they saw it) to end the suffering due to the war all over the world rather than to cruelly work and murder millions of people due to race and religion!
And well, they'd only just got the H bomb, how were they to know about the effects after? It wasn't right, but it wasnt genocide.

Originally Posted by Markme
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I'm not sure if the second paragraph was for me, but if it was...
I dont think of hitler when i think of germany or the german people, i love them. All of the german friends i have are so nice, they are the opposite to the stereotype that many of them receive from people.

There is always going to be racists, murders, dishonest people and people that stray far from the line of sanity, but i guess as a global society we just have to deal with these people as they come. The holocast is something that happened in the past, its always going to be remembered for the inhumane things that were unleashed on the world. But in society today, there is still terrible terrible acts that are all around us. Assassinations, murders, rape, theft and many more. The holocast is thought of to be so terrible because it was targetted on a certain race of people, but in actual fact there was alot of germans, turks and many other races that died in thoughs gas chambers and death camps. Without all these terrible events, today.. right now would be different.

Yeah I wasn't saying that YOU viewed German people in this way, but that I don't think many people today do immediatly relate Germans to Hitler, that comes from an older generation, directly effected by the war I think.

Good point, Hitler didn't just target Jew's you're right, there were Communists, Disabled...etc as well, but it's still racial/political targetting.
I mean, Stalin and Mao killed way more of their own people that Hitler ever did, Stalin starved most of Russia's peasents to death for a "free and equal society" and killed many many Christians and Jews, Mao murdered millions of his own people and I think these dictators should be remembered just as much as Hitler is, but to be honest, I think Hitler is mentioned more just because it's nearer to home for us in Europe. I mean, some of my distant Jewish reletives died in the Holocaust (which is a strange thought for me as I was brought up a Roman Catholic!)
To think that something as horrific as that could happen in a country like Germany which is now democratic and reletivly peaceful seems absurd to us now, and scary. I mean, Germany was democratic and peaceful during the Wiemar Gov. and it all just went horribly wrong, it could happen in other countries in Europe, that's all I'm saying, we need to remember and prevent.

[!-nessica-!]

true, but in my opinion what america did was just as bad as hitler, just in a different way.

thie thing i find ironic is that hitler tried to form a "perfect race" by killing all these people, but he was nothing like those people left.

[Okta20]

I'll ramble a bit, ok?

Japan needed to be defeated to end the war, and it was also a good warning to the Communists of Russia, so they decided it was the only way to end the war. I'm not saying I agree with them, it wasn't a humane, right thing to do, but they did it for a positive end (as they saw it) to end the suffering due to the war all over the world rather than to cruelly work and murder millions of people due to race and religion!
And well, they'd only just got the H bomb, how were they to know about the effects after? It wasn't right, but it wasnt genocide.

No, those bombs were not genocide. I don't think you can compare the Holocaust with that, though. It wouldn't do justice to either.

The thing is, most Nazis actually believed Holocaust to be necessary in order to end suffering. While Hitler was a madman, he would never have become Reichskanzler without people who believed in his ramblings.

agree that hitlers power was a big foundation to the monster he became, as i stated before. Any person that has such ludicruos veiws on humanity should never become the president, or be in charge or any one or thing.

Actually he was a monster before he came to power. Power just gave him the means to carry out his sick plans. If anybody had taken him seriously in the early years of his political activities, would have never have come so far.

Let me ramble about Hitler's rise to power.

On 9th November 1923, he wanted to march from Munich to Berlin for revolution, but they arrested him.

In prison he wrote the mad ramblings they call a book: "Mein Kampf". In there are his ideas, his convictions and his plans.
They let him out early for good behavior.

Meanwhile people were suffering. They had no work and no food and no money. The political system, democracy, failed because there was no money (because of irrationally high reparations) and the Reichspräsident (Herr von Hindenburg, a military monarchist, who had been retired before the *first war* began) was too old and had way too much power.

Hitler promised to get the people what they wanted and he gave them the feeling to belong together. He gave them back the self confidence they had lost in the last war. His party grew stronger and stronger, Hitler met the right people, made allies with monarchists (who wanted to control Hitler in order to reintroduce Monarchy) and politicians and finally met with Schleicher (important politician), who introduced him to Hindenburg.

Hindenburg didn't like Hitler. Actually he couldn't stand him, because Hitler never had gotten very far in military and really was just a painter. But the advisers (said monarchists) influenced the old man, so that he made Hitler Reichskanzler in January of 1933.

That was the beginning of the end. In February of 1933 the Reichstag (parliament) burned. They caught a communist in there and proclaimed state of emergency (now they could legally abolish any civil rights). They locked all communists, Jews and social democrats they could find up.
They made SA and SS part of the police.
In the elections on 5th march they had only a slight majority with a nationalist coalition partner. By July there was only one party left. NSDAP.
In 1934 Hindenburg died, and Hitler, now "Führer und Reichskanzler" was the only one ruling Germany.

[sarah2]

Yes, but you're just stating facts. I already know all these facts, they're basic history of Hitlers rise to power, big deal. Wether the Holocaust is wrong or right, wether Germany was to blame, wether it was right to bomb Hiroshima - that's what we're discussing, and we must already know these facts to discuss them. But whatever.

And ALL Jews, communists and democrats weren't locked up immediatly in 1933, Hitlers final solution took several years to execute.
Hindenburg did appoint Hitler, but he also tried to control him (and obviously failed) by appointing Von Papen as his second in command only letting a few Nazi's into the Reichstag, it was Article 48 (that the President could bypass the Reichstag and make decisions without the democratic system) that Hitler used to gain dictatorship.
And also, another thing you missed, The Wall Street crash, which then made the reporations unpayable (due to Germany borrowing the money from America). So bascially Germany was fucked and Hitler looked like a good idea.

The thing is, most Nazis actually believed Holocaust to be necessary in order to end suffering. While Hitler was a madman, he would never have become Reichskanzler without people who believed in his ramblings.
Actually he was a monster before he came to power. Power just gave him the means to carry out his sick plans. If anybody had taken him seriously in the early years of his political activities, would have never have come so far.

Yes, exactly, which is why previous generations of English people have blamed the Germans, there is no denying Hitler had massive support, I mean, people where actually denouncing their Jewish/Communist neighbours for Gods sake! This is the strength of a people being desperate and believing propaganda and looking for answers from the wrong leader.

[Okta20]

Yes, but you're just stating facts. I already know all these facts, they're basic history of Hitlers rise to power, big deal. Wether the Holocaust is wrong or right, wether Germany was to blame, wether it was right to bomb Hiroshima - that's what we're discussing, and we must already know these facts to discuss them. But whatever.

And ALL Jews, communists and democrats weren't locked up immediatly in 1933, Hitlers final solution took several years to execute.
Hindenburg did appoint Hitler, but he also tried to control him (and obviously failed) by appointing Von Papen as his second in command only letting a few Nazi's into the Reichstag, it was Article 48 (that the President could bypass the Reichstag and make decisions without the democratic system) that Hitler used to gain dictatorship.
And also, another thing you missed, The Wall Street crash, which then made the reporations unpayable (due to Germany borrowing the money from America). So bascially Germany was fucked and Hitler looked like a good idea.

I know - It's just difficult to express things in a foreign language. It's making it hard to think of all the details. Thank you for pointing out what I missed.
Also, you obviously have a lot of knowledge on that subject, probably more than me, as I only know what I've read or was told in class or at my grandpa's.
Other people might not be so lucky to know all that stuff, that's why I wanted to give basic historical facts without going into detail too much.

And ALL Jews, communists and democrats weren't locked up immediatly in 1933, Hitlers final solution took several years to execute.

I didn't say that. Or at least I didn't want to. He did lock up quite a lot of left-wing guys at that time though, so that there was no real opposition at the elections.

Hindenburg did appoint Hitler, but he also tried to control him (and obviously failed) by appointing Von Papen as his second in command

Yes. I think I said that.

it was Article 48 (that the President could bypass the Reichstag and make decisions without the democratic system)

I know. Reichstagsbrandverordnung and all that. But, I'm sorry, if I offend you, is the number of the bloody article really important here? Same thing for the Wall Street crash (btw, the reparations were irrationally high even before that).

I think we've both got into some kind of "bah, I know better than you"-argument. I don't want to do that.

Let's just go back to debating? Please?

[!-nessica-!]

yeah please try to keep the posts nice
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i dont know as much as either of you on the topic.. so it kinda helps me to have all the facts and that in there too.. and im sure it would help others also. the facts are just as interesting as everyones opinions, to me anyway.

And ALL Jews, communists and democrats weren't locked up immediatly in 1933, Hitlers final solution took several years to execute.

wouldnt it have been impossible for all of them to be locked up immediately? the amount of people they locked up/killed was phenomenal for how fast they did it.. how many years did it last for?

Yes, exactly, which is why previous generations of English people have blamed the Germans, there is no denying Hitler had massive support, I mean, people where actually denouncing their Jewish/Communist neighbours for Gods sake! This is the strength of a people being desperate and believing propaganda and looking for answers from the wrong leader.

if it meant saving yours and your family/friends' lives wouldnt you tell people what they wanted to hear? i think thats what you mean anyway..
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i guess its just.. if you were in the position that so many were when hitler ruled, what would you have done? it would have taken a lot of guts to stand up to anyone who had that much power and was so sadistic.. which i think is why he had so many supporters. they would have been afraid of him.